Letter From A Friend -- Part 2

<body topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0> <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0 height="100%"><tr> <td valign="top" width=200 BGCOLOR="#003333" TEXT="#F7F7FF" background="1562c2c3.jpg"> <div> <TABLE BORDER="0" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0" WIDTH="95" BORDERCOLORLIGHT="#C0C0C0" BORDERCOLORDARK="#808080" FRAME="BOX" RULES="ALL" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0" > <tR> <tD VALIGN=TOP HEIGHT= 46 WIDTH="91"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="1x1.gif" HEIGHT="46" ALIGN="bottom" WIDTH="91" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0"></tD> </tR> </TABLE></div> <bR> <bR> </td> <td valign="top" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#080000"> <bR> <bR> <div> <B>*** The following is some correspondence in response to my article “Letter From A Friend" (part 1).  If you haven't read the original article, then you will likely have a hard time following this one.  Another friend has made comments on that article, and I've posted our discussion about it below… ***</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Andrew, </B></div> <div> <B>I just read your last letter after someone sent me an e-mail referring me to it. I found it intriguing. There were two statements I had trouble with and they are found below. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>1.  "Now about you're old lady -- you are missing this: She is not sinful because she sins, she sins because she is sinful -- She is jus</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#009900" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>t the same as </B></FONT><B>Hitler in her heart, no different. Put her in the same circumstances and she would do the same as Hitler -- and so would you and I." </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>I agree with being the same in heart condition, but disagree with the generalization that all would do the same if in same circumstances. Many people face the same circumstances daily and their decisions lead to different outcomes. I find your generalization to be false in the last statement found in the quote above. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>2.  "You won't see ONE God who is '</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>the same yesterday today and forever</B></FONT><B>'." </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>This one seemed confusing to me because it left questions about what you're trying to say by capitalizing "ONE". In my opinion, the context of your letter didn't have anything to do with singularism or pluralism, so it's not clear what the emphasis on "ONE" is trying to say. Could you explain the above quoted statement, please? </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>YYYY</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Hi YYYY, </B></div> <div> <B>Thanks a lot for reading my article and for your thoughts on it.  I understand where you're coming from on your first question/disagreement.  Let me clarify what I mean by putting the old lady in Hitler's circumstances -- I don't just mean picking her up right now as who she is and plopping her down in his place -- in that case, you're right, she'd probably do things way different.  What I mean by the "same circumstances" is taking you or me or the old lady, and have us be born in Germany at that time, to Hitler's parents, and have ALL his same circumstances shaping us growing up that shaped him --- everything that made Hitler what he was.  Now, of course, God makes us all different, but we are still all born completely sinful and despite some differences based on personality, etc., we would all still follow the same general path of hating the Jews and wanting them dead.  That's what our evil hearts would do in his same circumstances.  The main reason why people would disagree is because they would see themselves now and think, "hmmph!  I would never do that" -- but you see, they've been raised in a Christian nation with wildly different principles and have lived under quite different circumstances than Hitler did.  But if they grew up as he did, they would be a completely different person.  Most psychologists agree that probably 98% of who we become as a person in life is shaped in our first 3 years of life.   So if we lived Hitler's first 3 years (let alone 50 years), we'd be 98% of who he was.  That's assuming God does not step in and miraculously change the circumstances or change our heart, but he didn't in Hitler's case, and anyway that would be different "circumstances".</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Anyway, it may have been unclear what I meant, so thanks for the question on that.  I hope my explanation makes sense, so I hope you see that I didn't just make that statement ignorantly -- I believe it very much and I think it's evident when clearly explained. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>On your second point, you're right -- the context of the article is not whether God is ONE God (monotheism) or MANY gods (polytheism).  It is just assumed that God is one God and the article is directed towards people who are Christians or at least profess to be.  In fact, the person who wrote the original questions is a professing Christian, so it is safe assuming that he believes in ONE God.  Anyway, the point that I was making was simply that the Arminian approach to understanding God and Scripture is in so much conflict with itself that it doesn't show consistency in God.  We know that God is only ONE God, not many, and that Scripture says He is the same "yesterday, today, and forever", but the Arminian approach only seems to see one aspect of God here, and one aspect there.  For instance, it sees the loving God in the New Testament who is "</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>not wanting anyone to perish</B></FONT><B>" (</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>2 Peter 3:9</B></FONT><B>), but then it can't explain why this same God had Joshua stone and burn Achan's son's and daughters with him for only his sin (</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>Joshua 7:20-26</B></FONT><B>).  I've heard many people with that mindset say something to the tune of "the God of the Old Testament seems like a different God." So in essence, I'm trying to explain that the Arminian approach is so disjointed and blind to so much of Scripture, that it almost forces itself to see different Gods for different parts of Scripture -- it has no way of explaining these huge differences in God's commands and actions in so many different passages.  So it confuses people, rather than helping them understand God's true nature. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Well, I hope that explains why I wrote what I did there.  Thanks for your thoughts.</B></div> <div> <B>Andrew</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Andrew, </B></div> <div> <B>I understand what you meant with the Hitler thing, but now find that the point is irrelevant due to the fact that it's not a realistic model.  No two people are able to experience things exactly the same, so it seems absurd to use an example of something that is unable to happen (hypothetical) to things that happen (the actual decisions people make).  I guess I feel that an example similar to the one you used in your most recent e-mail:</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>"Most psychologists agree that probably 98% of who we become as a person in life is shaped in our first 3 years of life. So if we lived Hitler's first 3 years (let alone 50 years), we'd be 98% of who he was.  That's assuming God does not step in and miraculously change the circumstances or change our heart..."</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>would be a more realistic model for your point.  Oh well...I guess it doesn't make much of a difference.  I just have a difficult time with hypothetical models that can't be applied.  If I were born the same time as Hitler, to Hitler's parents, and lived his life...I would be Hitler.  I wouldn't be YYYY.  So I wouldn't be able to fit in your model.  It would be Hitler living Hitler's life, not YYYY living Hitler's life.</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>YYYY</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Hey YYYY, </B></div> <div> <B>Yes, your theorizing, that living Hitler's life would make you Hitler, is right -- then you wouldn't be you, you'd be him.  Which is precisely the point I was trying to make -- namely that we are basically what has shaped us -- so if you were born to his parents and his circumstances, etc. -- you'd be him, not YYYY.  In other words, you wouldn't be much different or decide that you liked the Jews, because your heart in those circumstances would incline to the same things -- which is why the Bible tells us that apart from Christ, "</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>no good thing lives in me</B></FONT><B>" -- </B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>Romans 7:18</B></FONT><B> -- and </B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>Romans 3:12</B></FONT><B> says that all of us together have become "</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>worthless</B></FONT><B>" -- so there is nothing in us that would make us live better than Hitler did, because that would indicate some "good thing" and some "worth" in us apart from Christ.  Anyway, I'm sure if you think about it, you'll see that without Christ, all the "good" people in the world really don't do anything "good" from their heart, because it cannot be done in faith in Christ, since they are not born-again.  And </B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>Romans 14:23</B></FONT><B> says "</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#FF0000" FACE="Arial Rounded MT Bold" ><B>everything that does not come from faith is sin.</B></FONT><B>"  Well, without getting too detailed, that should help explain why I do believe that any one of us would "be Hitler" like you say, if put in his circumstances.</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Andrew</B></div> <bR> </td> </tr></table></body>